IndieWeb is …
VS Fediverse
A satire.
You can have both!
Some historical perspective by Lemmer-Webber.
IndieWeb is …
A satire.
You can have both!
Some historical perspective by Lemmer-Webber.
I’m also working on a to-do list that supports infinite nesting in a very powerful way. Less related but cool and still knowledge managementish
There are many other ideas in my head, like a framework designed to ship no JavaScript and analysis of a database of a million love letters I’ve gotten my hands on from a dubious way
<@charismatic_shell:matrix.org> What projects?
Recently I just completed my website finally, static site with a sprinkle of different content types, stream speeds, and of course wikilinks to draw it all together. In the background, I’m working on a selfhostable tool designed to make webmentions and other decentralized (not crypto fwiw) cross site communication that is integral to the [[indie web]] easy, a topic very relevant to agora I’m also working on a to-do list that supports infinite nesting in a very powerful way. Less related but cool and still knowledge managementish There are many other ideas in my head, like a framework designed to ship no JavaScript and analysis of a database of a million love letters I’ve gotten my hands on from a dubious way
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As part of my dive back into open source, I took a look at my blog, social networks, and other tools I’m using.
Well, maybe that’s not quite true. I’ve been tinkering with my blog for 16 years, I doubt I’ll ever stop, regardless of how I’m spending my time!
I’ve stopped using Facebook, Tumblr, Medium, and Instagram and doubled down on using Twitter for my "whole self". Which in my case means posting cooking storms, long threads on travel, as well as lots and lots of tech.
For this post I’m not going to get into why I’m off other platforms. With Twitter, I’ve always seen it as of the web, at the very least — a link for every post. And, thanks to a long ago setup, I have an automatically updated archive of all my tweets.
Twitter once again made changes to their API for third-party apps. I’ve used Tweetbot for years with aggressive filtering to make using Twitter much much better. And Tweetbot still does that, but I’m worried for when that’s no longer possible.
And then Twitter locked my account and wanted to send an SMS to my Canadian number while I was in the US.
And that was a good reminder that that I should work on being less dependent on Twitter1 as well.
I’ve had my eye on [[Micro.blog]] for a long time. I reserved the handle @boris there right at the beginning, but didn’t do anything with it.
I have great admiration for Pat Dryburgh and saw him working on a Jekyll theme and using MicroBlog so all his content is on his own site.
MicroBlog is free to use. You sign up and then link in one or more feeds, either RSS/Atom or JSON, and it will publish these to your timeline, linking back to the original. It’s centralized in its namespace, but aggregates content.
You can pay for a few different things. If you don’t want to run your own blog, MicroBlog will run one for you. What I pay for is cross posting, which is only $2/month. This enables, on a per feed basis, linking in your Twitter, Medium, or LinkedIn accounts, and posting content to them. Facebook Pages are supported, but I haven’t been able to get that working, and that isn’t really what I want to spend time on.
Since I use Jekyll for my blog, all of the content is text/HTML/Markdown files. I store them in Git, and have used a variety of tools to generate and serve up the static HTML site.
Currently I have the blog source in a private repo on GitHub and use a free account on Netlify to build and serve it2.
But, with a static site, I need to run a separate server if I wanted to accept short posts on mobile. Specifically, with MicroBlog’s iOS client, it talks to either a Wordpress site or to anything that can accept [[Micropub]]3 posts.
I talked to Pat, who was already doing interesting things with podcasts and Git to get things on MicroBlog, about what a little Microglue server would look like.
I’d want it to run on Heroku, talk to the GitHub API, understand Jekyll front matter and markdown, and speak Micropub.
I wrote this up as a series of issues in a GitHub repo with feedback from Pat, intending to place a couple of bounties. Time passed, I added a large BorisCoin4 bounty via Gitcoin, and then had ozkan leave me a note about an existing implementation.
And so I dove into Pelle’s webpage-micropub-to-github. He pretty much wrote it exactly how I had hoped to have such a thing built.
It’s built in Node and has a [[Deploy to Heroku]]button which can get you up and running in minutes.
Of course, minutes turned into slightly longer as I worked on getting the entire IndieWeb toolchain configured and setup on my blog and various other places.
I documented the process in a Github issue and will likely fork Pelle’s code so I can experiment, bounty some issues, and generally make it work for me. And then contribute fixes upstream of course!
Since I was using live accounts for all of this, various messages made it through to different systems.
This one [made it to twitter](https://twitter.com/bmann/status/1045576992270295040 ):
I may quite possibly be posting this via micropublish.net, to my own micropub server on Heroku, which turns it into Jekyll compatible md file and posts it to Github, which sends it to Netlify, which creates a feed for MicroBlog.
Which got me a ["Saw what?" from @jimgroom](https://twitter.com/jimgroom/status/1045577439752196097 ).
But my favourite was the "It’s past midnight, is it working yet?" which made it all the way to Medium and LinkedIn.
I’m now trying out a bunch of MicroPub Clients, and also documenting that in issues.
I’ll turn a bunch of these things into issues and see how much farther I get.
I don’t have the MicroBlog iOS client working yet, and neither is the OwnYourGram site (which is really great for walking you through every step of getting your IndieWeb / MicroPub setup). Both need some upgrades to the server to work with media handling.
I also need to share the micro and full JSON feed templates that I made for Jekyll to syndicate to Microblog with. Stay tuned, and perhaps I’ll have time to actually organize a fun IndieWeb meetup in Vancouver soon.
There’s a whole other story about how Twitter’s usernames are the de facto global namespace linking offline to online. I consider this a personal failure, as there was a window in time where these systems might have been at least federated rather than in one single commercial system, and I was working on bits and pieces of identity at the time.↩
My [[Colophon]] and [[Blog Colophon]] have documented my blog travels over the years.↩
The IndieWeb site talks Micropub, which is in fact a W3C Recommendation. It’s been a while since I paid attention to this — great to see the spec matured and formalized.↩
My experimental Ethereum token.↩
Continuing the discussion of how IndieWeb needs to evolve in order to see adoption.
Chris Aldrich responds to my question "What does a Model T assembly line look like for IndieWeb?" by first asserting that that’s what Twitter and Facebook already are.
So I guess I’ll need to explain what I meant by asking that. No, I don’t think "Model T Assembly Line" equals Facebook. And one large MicroBlog instance isn’t it, either.
How does an end user — I’ll call this person a tinkerer, because you’re going to at least need to copy and paste some tech instructions — deploy a site for just them, that works out of the box? And, where is the list of different "just works" solutions that they can choose from?
The answer to Boris is that the IndieWeb has been working on the scope problem first knowing that once the interoperable kinks between systems can be worked out to a reasonable level that scale will be the easy part of the problem. Obviously micro.blog has been able to productize IndieWeb principles (with several thousands of users) and still work relatively flawlessly with a huge number of other platforms. There have been tremendous strides towards shoehorning IndieWeb principles into major CMSes like WordPress (
500+ active users currently) and Drupal (50+ active users) not to mention several dozens of others including Known, Perch, Craft CMS, Hugo, Kirby, etc., etc.
Plugins to existing systems are great! But: in many cases, the base system has a high technical complexity. I personally wouldn’t feel comfortable telling people to run their own WordPress or Drupal instances — you need hosting experience and security maintenance. So right away that’s a relatively high cost.
I’ve spent quite some time looking at this stuff, especially just recently. I just added a PR to Pelle Wessman @voxpelli’s webmentions server so that it can be one-click "Deployed to Heroku". Pelle wants to go further and have it work in "single user mode", but for now anyone can host their own webmentions server.
Known is the best of the bunch that Chris lists, in terms of being fully integrated and setup out of the box. Except I think you still need to setup Bridgy separately? Bridgy seems to do everything that people actually need in terms of communicating with today’s social media world, so I don’t understand why that functionality isn’t baked in to more systems? I originally got Known working on Heroku shortly after it launched (notice a theme?) and it’s on my list to set it up this way again.
This "Deploy to Heroku" modality (or Zeit or other serverless style) is a simpler, turn key model for both developers and end users. Especially for distributed systems, we can’t think in a mode of old school LAMP stack systems where the "user" is hand updating the operating system layer. Even Docker deploys just sort
I want to see distributed systems where users are hosting from mobile phones to Raspberry Pis, and every mode in between. IndieWeb has the right spirit for this, and absolutely needs to work on protocols and interoperability, but it also has an issue where a lot of this code is simply stale.
So: how do we encourage more Manton’s and Pelle’s to build Model-Ts that are one-click-deploy simple for both tinkerers and other developers?
Some kind of Ansible-scripted test best of IndieWeb sites, all spun up automatically and then tested interacting with each other.
Also! Would be fun to turn that Ansible IndieWeb test bed into some kind of weird experiment of sites automated interacting with each other. Just letting them go wild and see what happens.
β¦and why would you want to?
[[Local-first software]] applied to [[IndieWeb]].
Would the inbox/outbox model in actor model work in a local-first indieweb context?
The IndieWeb wiki is the main hub for information.
The IndieWeb is a community of individual personal websites, connected by simple standards, based on the principles of owning your domain, using it as your primary identity, to publish on your own site (optionally syndicate elsewhere), and own your data. more Β»
IndieWeb standards include:
IndieWeb is composed of a number of [[microformats]].
URL : https://indieweb.org
A social network made out of the World Wide Web. Not locked in to big monolithic platforms (Facebook, Twitter).
At the heart of the IndieWeb is an attempt to unify the ideas behind personal websites, blogs and social networks, but in a manner consistent with how the world wide web operates.
My website at https://doubleloop.net is an IndieWeb site.
Your website acts much like your wall on Facebook or your timeline on Twitter - it’s your personal soapbox, your castle on the web.
[β¦]one recreates, in a decentralized manner, the kinds of online interactions one has come to expect from private social networks.
βSolidarity grows through increasing liberty, not through constraint or obligation,β writes Ross. βPersonal autonomy and social solidarity do not oppose each other, but instead reinforce each other.β In an age in which online spaces feel more divisive and polarized than ever, perhaps it is time to ponder how we can create conditions of personal autonomy that give rise to greater social solidarity.
self hosting purity tests have no end - you can never be truly independent of everyone and everything else - so we sidestep that debate entirely by being a big tent and saying all you really need is domain and data portability, everything else is up to you
β https://chat.indieweb.org/dev/2022-02-26#t1645893424908900
@tkenben @peterkaminski@mastodon.social @peterkaminski@toolsforthought.rocks interesting, thanks! IIUC that would be close to the [[indieweb]] approach, of which @chrisaldrich is an expert :)
My currently position is that 1. that would in many ways be ideal, trending to a distributed system (instead of “just” decentralized) but 2. parts of DNS needs to become way more democratic (which in practice might mean: it must work without money involved) for that to have a good chance to work.
https://indieweb.org/microblog.pub
Like micro.blog but self-hostable?
This is a really fun listen from Doug Belshaw. He discusses [[IndieWeb]] and the issues he sees with it.
Microcast #081 - Anarchy, Federation, and the IndieWeb - Doug Belshaw’s Thougβ¦
Doug has a preference for the Fediverse as an approach to an open web, and says the [[political philosophy]]of the IndieWeb is a type of right-libertarianism, because it lacks social equality, and without that it is just a focus on individual freedom.
My gut response is that I disagree and that it’s all a bit more nuanced than that. But it’s a good jumping off point for discussion!
IndieWeb and federation. Geeky, white and male.
Bit of a superficial summary of IndieWebβ¦
Likes the practical side of it.
Doug doesn’t think it will scale. More enthusiastic about federation.
Definition in opposition to a thing is not a good idea.
Political philosophyβ¦
Anarchism.
Left-libertarianism. Individual freedom and social equality. Anti-authoritarianism, social anarchism.
Social equality aspect is missing. Collective ownership is missing. And therefore compatible with neoliberalism.
People have to be equipped for the journey. "Bring your own infrastructure" (mantra of Indieweb?) - individualist rather than collectivist.
Doug doesn’t like being a sysadmin.
He doesn’t mind it, but doesn’t think it is socially focussed.
I think I first heard of the [[IndieWeb]] movement in 2016 sometime. It’s a bit hazy now, but I’ve a memory that I stumbled on it through a trail of links starting on [[Wikity]].
I’ve tinkered with web sites in some form or another for a long time, and I have happy memories of various weird Geocities experiments, sadly lost to the sands of time it seems.
As far as independently hosting goes, I appear to have had a self-hosted blog since 2006 at my old domain noodlemaps.net - thanks Wayback Machine for that! My first self-hosted post is seemingly on the topic of data sonification and playing non-audio files through /dev/dsp on Linux. Excellent.
I’ve had a self-hosted blog up at doubleloop.net since around 2013 (thanks again Internet Archive). I went through a through static site generators. I actually really like how my old Hexo-based site looked. Better than my current siteβ¦
My first documented attendance of HWC London looks to be December 2016, hosted by Calum and Barry who were really welcoming. Around then, I fiddled about with various platforms before switching over to WordPress.
I’ve really enjoyed being part of the IndieWeb community. My active involvement (at events, on IRC, etc) has peaked and waned over the years, but I’ve still always felt part of the bigger whole. That’s another post, though.
How did you find out about the IndieWeb community?